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lexi luthor
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:38 pm Reply with quote        
Nobody cares about what you did. Nobody cares because you come off as rude and inconsiderate and honestly your credentials don't make you seem any better than Cat in any way. They make you annoying.

Also, Cat isn't going to argue with you. She isn't going to make a scene like you have, and she certainly would never stoop to your level. She is professional unlike you. She is probably thinking of a well-thought through response unlike your tactless ones.

And just because you have an opinion does not mean that Cat needs to abide by it. Your opinion is one, whereas there are others that also have opinions on the bases, and I'm sure they will all be addressed. Whether Cat decides to act on any opinions is not an immediate decision, and assuming that she is ignoring everything you say is small-minded. As well, if you weren't so accusing and attacking, we'd be less accusing and attacking in our responses to you.

Others have given negative feedback without stepping on Cat, and nobody has corrected them. I think you should think about the way you worded your criticism, and I believe you owe an apology.

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:45 pm Reply with quote        
If I may inject my opinion to this pissing match...

Everyone, I suggest not continuing this ever-increasing cycle of animosity and barb-throwing. We understand that Choc is unhappy with the art here, and responding with snark is not going to solve any problems.

Choc, I understand that you are annoyed. However, no one is actually doubting where you worked, it's just that it doesn't matter to us. I am not an art person. I am half blind, so this art looks just fine to me. However, you seem to have a tendency to sound critical and condescending with your comments. Also, you tend to drop the fact that you pixelled for other sites rather often. I am a patient person, who does not pay much attention to art, so I haven't really minded, but I would ask you to do something. If you end up staying an active member of Midorea, then please work on your constructive criticism. As it is, your comments are harsh: unnecessarily so. That may be the reason that they are not acted upon as you suspect, as opposed to the actual content.

But this is a message to everyone. Midorea's best quality is not the artwork (although that shit's pretty bangin'), it is the community. If you cannot be respectful with your comments, then do not post. Doing so only incites anger and animosity. I don't know about you guys, but this place is my escape from those things.


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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:47 pm Reply with quote        
@littl3chocobo
Unfortunately, you're under the assumption that I'm trying to be tact. I apologize for anything I may have done to perpetuate that notion. Honestly, I do not feel the need to control my words, since you've already established that you do not wish to participate in a respectful discussion.

If I was trying to be petty, I would've filled it with false platitudes, or tried to apologize for something, or fake taking the moral high ground; you fail to understand that I am fully aware of my tone, and intend to stick by it.

And I iterate once more: No one cares about your credentials. This is not a peer review session. Criticism is appreciated in any work, but unless you're prompted for any sort of verification, there's no point in trying to supply it. I skipped your entire paragraph detailing your past experience by virtue of the fact that you mentioned it again without any sort of request.

And the reason I harp on them is because, up until you bothered mentioning them, I mostly felt that your post was constructive. However, you opted to try to elevate your own self-worth the moment you bothered presenting a comparison no one asked for.

Perhaps what's most striking about your response to me is that you didn't do anything but confirm every single assessment in my original post. There was no refuting my analysis vs your own, which means you honestly don't feel it's that big of a deal; Rather, you immediately try to attack me, and bring up useless tidbits of yourself that no one cares about. Please stop that; No one wants to hear it. This is a discussion about the changes in art.

And as a final aside: Why should I bother posting proper grammar when you fail to supply it yourself? And why is it that my instance of improper grammar still seems miles above yours?


TL;DR
Petty argument between littl3chocobo. People wishing to actually discuss relevant stuff are free to ignore the interactions between it and myself.

Edit 1: Just realized more posts happened. ;-; I'm bad at this.

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:52 pm Reply with quote        
I must agree with Mal in this aspect I said my piece on the matter I care not to include anything else than what I have already said. I enjoy this site for the community more than the art.

I myself have nothing to say for or against it because I am not an artist myself so I can't actually feel right critiquing something that I myself am incapable of doing any better. They new art will take some getting used to but I am accepting of the new changes. Nothing can become better without a bit of change.

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:59 pm Reply with quote        
you are a very smart cookie mal, shame there are not more people like you. sure, i'll calm it down and just wait for catghost to came and i will make an attempt to blunt my edge a bit ok?

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:08 pm Reply with quote        
littl3chocobo wrote:
the base never had any hint of realism so i am very surprised to hear there was any intention of it since the lack of proper bone location or muscle definition lends this to a cartoon/anime style and even after the edits has almost no ties to realism, as for the face though, we humans have jaws and cheeks, either of which are defined so adding pixels where they were not effective along with the relocation of the eyes take away any and all shape leaving it overly round like a ball

your necks to not have a 'natural slope' these are natural slopes; https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSINBhjVfAjubJWPu7HxRfOK07cQkuItFsTe27FgCX7CgHF3qKh http://cast.thirdage.com/files/styles/slideshow/public/originals/young%20neck.jpg your base does not have a straight line that goes down it starts angled at the top and maintains the same degree all the way to the shoulders, the only time that severity should be had is if there is strain and the relaxed arms say otherwise though a bit of it is exacerbated by the strong dark 'shadow' that makes it look as if the neck were a square peg set at an angle

then why only the deltoids? there is no muscle at all in the rest of the arm or meat to suggest shape of any sort, on the matter of muscles the female abdominals only has two sets with the others loosely washed flat and while the males have all five sets of abdominasl drawn they are in the wrong place and are the wrong shape and size, it looks like you used a skinned anatomical reference instead of any human body for your pixeling which is a shame or you would know you cannot /see/ the last set at all over the skin and the second-to-last virtually always blends with the one above it so that they look either like one single or are joined enough that there is no clear separation, that is why you never hear of an '8-pack' of abs let alone a 'ten' you have an extra set showing. you also left out the lower gastro muscles in the back far leg of the male giving him something of a cankle on that side also neither side of either base's feet have heels or arches

if you are not going to shape the legs according to the muscles you put in please do not bother editing them, they look undershaded because the rest is overshaded anyway but thanks for not just shooting that one down like all the other comments

they are broken because they seem absent under the breast and tucked in much too far on it and above it is actually farther in than directly below it, if you remove the breast all-together you can see the odd way it is bent and how little of it there is, again this shirks all realism that even the most liberal airbrushing of people magazine would not dare

my suggestion is to bring in the line that you pulled out on the neck to take it back to it's original size, other than that your only option would be to center it which would mean you'd either need to thicken the other side of the neck or move the whole thing over. it is simply not aligned with so much of only one side moved, personally i say put it back the way it was since the current now leave several bits of neck hanging over the side of the jackets on one side



if you are willing to listen then the base could be lovely but messing up the lines and the shading then saying you dont want to mess up the lines or shading by fixing the errors is not how you do it, i showed the base to a pixelist on another site who isn't a member both the old and new versions and she quite frankly hated the new one and without prompt saw several of the same problems and pointed them out, another user on here also agrees they are terribly made and she isn't going to change her avatar anymore because she does not like seeing the base which is bad because all of her avis show most of the arms and upper body off



you also forgot about the breast closest to the viewer, it is still much too far over


I don't deny that the base has flaws, at all. It was pixeled over 5 years ago, and since then I have grown as an artist and learned from my mistakes. However, the point where I grew enough to see these mistakes and fix them was also the same time we already had hundreds of items pixeled and released on the site. The choice to edit them came from a desire to keep what we currently had, instead of starting from scratch if we decided to make drastic changes to the base.

Quote:
it looks like you used a skinned anatomical reference instead of any human body for your pixeling which is a shame or you would know you cannot /see/ the last set at all over the skin and the second-to-last virtually always blends with the one above it so that they look either like one single or are joined enough that there is no clear separation,

False accusations are not appreciated.
Actual references used whilst pixeling the male's abdomen:
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/025/8/0/male_torso_study_for_the_six_pack_lovers_by_rafater-d5soblw.jpg
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs28/f/2008/050/e/b/Barbarian_Warrior___29_by_mjranum_stock.jpg
http://midorea.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10001/tumblr_m7xmiricwJ1ro2ulro1_500.png

Quote:
my suggestion is to bring in the line that you pulled out on the neck to take it back to it's original size, other than that your only option would be to center it which would mean you'd either need to thicken the other side of the neck or move the whole thing over. it is simply not aligned with so much of only one side moved, personally i say put it back the way it was since the current now leave several bits of neck hanging over the side of the jackets on one side

if you are willing to listen then the base could be lovely but messing up the lines and the shading then saying you dont want to mess up the lines or shading by fixing the errors is not how you do it, i showed the base to a pixelist on another site who isn't a member both the old and new versions and she quite frankly hated the new one and without prompt saw several of the same problems and pointed them out, another user on here also agrees they are terribly made and she isn't going to change her avatar anymore because she does not like seeing the base which is bad because all of her avis show most of the arms and upper body off

You're bringing up something that cannot be helped, specifically the lines, and in fact happened prior to these edits. This is a poor way to get your point across, as the lines have nothing to do with the base update, except that they were the limiting factor in what could be done to them.


I'm open to criticism, and appreciate the chance to grow in my understanding of anatomy. But that also means I will counter said criticism if I feel they are unfounded or overly harsh.


Also, I want to thank everyone who has given their feedback for the bases.

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:09 pm Reply with quote        
Yes, thank you Mal. Your intervention is appreciative, and I would like to apologize, both for myself, and on behalf of littl3chocobo that her messages inspired so much ire for no real reason. Criticism is always welcome in any medium, after all, and we shouldn't be focusing away from that through petty arguments.

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Malverne
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:14 pm Reply with quote        
There are intelligent people on here. Most people are intelligent. However, we are very close, and are all very protective of each other. Your original post was very aggressive, so of course people jumped. I just happened to be very tired and toooootally not in the mood to jump onto a soap box and get snarky.

We are all just waaaay too overprotective. In my case, it's because I'm an introvert whose friends are mostly online and on this website. Self-esteem issues run rampant. I know how I'd feel if someone attacked my work.


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littl3chocobo



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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:21 pm Reply with quote        
maverik may not apologize on my behalf and it is 'he' if you do not mind


while seeing the references used i may say that you could have used them but they still were not applied, it would be nice if one more shot at shading them could be taken to make them a little more natural

it was that you yourself brought up the lines being a limiting factor after alterations had been done to said lines, i would have no cause to bring it up if it had not been part of the conversation already and my answer was not to keep altering them but to go back to the parameters set by the old lines, that would lessen the amount of alterations needed to fix each item with a high collar or a neck as well as keep the skins from needing alterations as well, softening the neck lines would help

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:21 pm Reply with quote        
I can totally understand what Mal is saying here, and I mostly agree. As for myself, I hope I didn't seem like I was on a soapbox or getting snarky; I simply wished to point out the issues with communication that Cho's post held. I felt the post was counterproductive in its approach and detracted from the points they were trying to make. Honestly though, I guess I was being a little over-protective myself. xD;

Either way, the point at hand is the art and discussion thereof. All of this other silliness has been rather distracting. Sweat

Maverik



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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:45 pm Reply with quote        
In that case, I wish to rescind the apology I put forth for litt3chocobo. Obviously, he sees no wrong in inciting a large argument by contributing via negative tone and pointless exposition about details no one cares about.

As for the criticism itself, I do agree that the neck has problems in its current state, and the thing needs to be shifted or centered.

However, as artistic style can be a preference, I personally do not think that going back to the old base is the ideal solution; The neck for older bases was too thin in comparison to the new one. As demonstrated by the numerous reference images cited, no single model had a neck the same thickness as their forearm. The shading does need to be altered a bit, but I still feel that this change in base was a largely positive change.

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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:25 am Reply with quote        
Personally, I'm a little on the fence about the new bases. When they are dressed up and covered the changes are not incredibly visible and are not much of a bother. However, the faces are something I'm not 100% aboard with. They seem a little bit too thick in the general chin, jawline area, and the change in shading looks a little uneven to me. On the female avatar it almost looks masculine with the mixture of shading and thickening so the chin does not come to a single point.

As for the base as a whole, some of the changes were okay, but the thing that makes them less desirable to me was the difference in shading. Before it was a kind of progressive design, spreading the shading out a bit more, but it feels as though this new base has shading in certain areas which seems harsher, sharper, and unappealing to me. These main area being the upper thighs right at hip level, the waist on the female avatars, it makes them look much thinner when they seemed thin enough to begin with. The lighting on the female avatar’s chest/breast area also seem a bit funky with the light tone on top and progressing to a much darker shade without any transition.

I understand that the avatar was changed in ways which would not have adjusted it enough to make all of the already items still usable, and a bit of tweaking would have done wonders, but I find the changes a bit too drastic for my liking. Of course, I already expressed most of my concerns above and hope that maybe they’ll be taken into account if any adaptations will be made. Thank you for reading.
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:48 am Reply with quote        
I do agree that the female head seems too angular. Looking at it in the avatar viewer, it doesn't look like there's any different between the two structures. While some form of unisex design might've been intended, I also feel it would be better if the female face was changed to not have as pronounced a jawline.

I can also see where you're coming from in terms of the shading. Before, the shading was more gradual, subtly hinting towards a particular body definition. The new style is much more sharp, and seems more of a stylized contrast. Not sure how I personally feel about it, but I personally categorize it as a change in general style, rather than an improvement or regression when compared to the original base.

I still vote for the torso being odd, though.

Looking at the differences in bases, I can't help but wonder if it'd be feasible to offer both available. The styles between the two bases are different enough in their own right, but I can see why people would prefer one over another. Besides a few odd shading and positioning issues, though, I wouldn't call any of the new changes a mistake... Just different.

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Jandi



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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:43 am Reply with quote        
I absolutely love the new bases, as I pointed out when I first noticed them. <3 They're lovely.

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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:00 pm Reply with quote        
The necks do look a bit barbie dollish but that's how the anime style is I suppose. the shoulder look like the weight baring should be slightly shifted but its not and its fine because its only a minor issue.

Other then that I really can't tell Sweat probably cause i use the deity form often.

I miss the curves of the rockin female bod, few sites had an ample bosom to flaunt, they still look bigger then mine IR IMO so I'm good, but I do miss those curves. Hai

I love the chin and the new faces look good as long as the animal nose stayed

Cat I love those refs... can you post more. -drools-

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