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Catghost
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:00 pm Reply with quote        


Today we officially release Midorea's new bases. These have been an ongoing project that the entire staff has been involved with, and so we are proud to finally make them available to you.

We want to make this transition as easy as possible, so to start we have only released these bases in the 4 basic colors. (Dark, Tan, Light and Pale) Over the next few months we will be converting old bases to new ones, so whenever a base is converted we will let you know.

Before this begins however, we'd like to hear your feedback regarding these changes. We understand that they are very drastic, but we assure you that we've done so in Midorea's best interests. We want Midorea to grow and progress, and by introducing these new bases we believe this is a step in the right direction.

So feel free to post any feedback, constructive criticisms, or suggestions you may have. Smile

Angelic.Demon
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:04 pm Reply with quote        
I truly love the new bases. I loved the old bases, but these are a nice change! Especially with the muscle definition c:

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:26 pm Reply with quote        
I agree with AnDe. As the staff was testing/reviewing these bases, I was a little reluctant to comment on them because I hadn't had the opportunity to play with them much. This is a pretty big change, too, so it was difficult to adjust to.

Overall, I think that the change is a positive one. It looks like the bases have more muscle definition now. I struggle when trying to put words into my critiques, but the avatars look more "stable" or "strong." The chin and the neck are big improvements that I've actually had problems with for a while. In the past, it looked like the neck could be snapped by a gentle breeze. xD Now, it's much stronger. And, the chin isn't pointy anymore. That's definitely an improvement.

I'd say that the change is most easily seen in the female base, although that may just be because that's the one that I usually use. The female base was very curvy before, but it wasn't a very natural or anatomically accurate curvy. Her stomach was just an (admittedly aesthetically pleasing) oval with no real structure under the skin. Now that she has more definition, she looks more human.

And as a last little comment, I like the new facial features. They look more natural and varied. I feel like we can create more personalities this way, and I'm certainly excited to play with them. (Maybe I'll stop wearing masks all the time. xD Although our masks are far to pretty to just forget about...)

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:52 pm Reply with quote        
Yeah, I really love the new avatar look. Weeeee

Though I just noticed that, you know how the name of one of the bases was changed from "Normal" to "Light" and the lightest from "Light" to "Pale", well, I just noticed the the ears, the new mouths and noses and some of the old ones and the eyebrows still have the old name. :U Just a little something that needs to be fixed.

The new eyebrows look weird with some of the old eyes, will this be fixed?

Also I am in love with the new nose.

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:27 pm Reply with quote        
i however am not pleased with the new alterations as i have mentioned to catghost before, my big ones are that there is now too much curve to the faces taking away the appealing anime slope and now giving a look of swolleness that makes the heat look much to large and bulbous. the neck slopes unnaturally into the shoulders instead of following a natural line down to the collar giving the illusion that the neck is melting down and outwards. the upper arms of the females is much too broad and defined making them look aged and hardened which goes against the softness of the rest. the odd shading all over the body makes it seem as if there are angles where there should only be curves and on both the female and the male the torso is much more shaded than the legs making them look added on after or at least unfinished, there is also an issue of the joints being too swollen looking as well from the large definition and curving. on the male avi the far leg is thicker than the near and the torso is still a tube with not shape or definition making the abdominals look painted on(and not at all improved from the old version that had nearly the same problem) on the female she looks broken in the area of the ribs with even /less/ waist than before which also make the breasts look larger which is not supported by the shading(the one facing is still much too far over which was a problem from before) and with the thick neck all being lumped on the near side the far side shoulder on both is now abnormally large compared to the other

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:36 pm Reply with quote        
Chu wrote:
I agree with AnDe. As the staff was testing/reviewing these bases, I was a little reluctant to comment on them because I hadn't had the opportunity to play with them much. This is a pretty big change, too, so it was difficult to adjust to.

Overall, I think that the change is a positive one. It looks like the bases have more muscle definition now. I struggle when trying to put words into my critiques, but the avatars look more "stable" or "strong." The chin and the neck are big improvements that I've actually had problems with for a while. In the past, it looked like the neck could be snapped by a gentle breeze. xD Now, it's much stronger. And, the chin isn't pointy anymore. That's definitely an improvement.

I'd say that the change is most easily seen in the female base, although that may just be because that's the one that I usually use. The female base was very curvy before, but it wasn't a very natural or anatomically accurate curvy. Her stomach was just an (admittedly aesthetically pleasing) oval with no real structure under the skin. Now that she has more definition, she looks more human.

And as a last little comment, I like the new facial features. They look more natural and varied. I feel like we can create more personalities this way, and I'm certainly excited to play with them. (Maybe I'll stop wearing masks all the time. xD Although our masks are far to pretty to just forget about...)

I am glad to hear your feedback, Chu! And I agree, being able to play around with them helps.

killerkitty wrote:
Yeah, I really love the new avatar look. Weeeee

Though I just noticed that, you know how the name of one of the bases was changed from "Normal" to "Light" and the lightest from "Light" to "Pale", well, I just noticed the the ears, the new mouths and noses and some of the old ones and the eyebrows still have the old name. :U Just a little something that needs to be fixed.

The new eyebrows look weird with some of the old eyes, will this be fixed?

Also I am in love with the new nose.

Thank you, Killerkitty! And true, that's not something we noticed. We'll get those fixed asap.

And what do you mean by weird? Or, which eyes? We're trying to re-position the eyes in a way that fits the new face, so I'm not sure how successful we were at that.

littl3chocobo wrote:
i however am not pleased with the new alterations as i have mentioned to catghost before, my big ones are that there is now too much curve to the faces taking away the appealing anime slope and now giving a look of swolleness that makes the heat look much to large and bulbous.

These avatars are not, and were never intended to be anime avatars. They're intended to be realistic, if not somewhat stylized. As for the swollen look you mention, I only added a few pixels to the chin to help define it. Otherwise the lines are the same as the previous bases, so as to prevent any major layering conflicts with older items.

Quote:
the neck slopes unnaturally into the shoulders instead of following a natural line down to the collar giving the illusion that the neck is melting down and outwards.

I've never seen a neck that goes straight into the collar. All necks have muscle definition, giving a natural slope that joins into the shoulder.

Quote:
the upper arms of the females is much too broad and defined making them look aged and hardened which goes against the softness of the rest. the odd shading all over the body makes it seem as if there are angles where there should only be curves

The avatar is designed to look muscular and toned.

Quote:
and on both the female and the male the torso is much more shaded than the legs making them look added on after or at least unfinished, there is also an issue of the joints being too swollen looking as well from the large definition and curving.

I'll see about giving the legs more muscle tone and detail then. Smile

Quote:
on the male avi the far leg is thicker than the near and the torso is still a tube with not shape or definition making the abdominals look painted on(and not at all improved from the old version that had nearly the same problem)

I tried not to alter the outline drastically, however I will see about trimming down the farther leg a bit. As for the abdomen, I cannot see what you mean. It looks well defined, and a great improvement from the previous.

Quote:
on the female she looks broken in the area of the ribs with even /less/ waist than before which also make the breasts look larger which is not supported by the shading(the one facing is still much too far over which was a problem from before)

I don't see how the ribs are "broken". The shading is exaggerated to give an illusion of wider hips and a more natural transition into the waist, due to the constraints of working within the existing lines.

Quote:
and with the thick neck all being lumped on the near side the far side shoulder on both is now abnormally large compared to the other

Again, exaggeration within the limits of the linework. If you can give any suggestions, however, that do not involve drastic changes to the lines, I'd be happy to consider them.


Thanks again for all of your feedback everyone. Smile I enjoy hearing them.

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:18 pm Reply with quote        
the base never had any hint of realism so i am very surprised to hear there was any intention of it since the lack of proper bone location or muscle definition lends this to a cartoon/anime style and even after the edits has almost no ties to realism, as for the face though, we humans have jaws and cheeks, either of which are defined so adding pixels where they were not effective along with the relocation of the eyes take away any and all shape leaving it overly round like a ball

your necks to not have a 'natural slope' these are natural slopes; https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSINBhjVfAjubJWPu7HxRfOK07cQkuItFsTe27FgCX7CgHF3qKh http://cast.thirdage.com/files/styles/slideshow/public/originals/young%20neck.jpg your base does not have a straight line that goes down it starts angled at the top and maintains the same degree all the way to the shoulders, the only time that severity should be had is if there is strain and the relaxed arms say otherwise though a bit of it is exacerbated by the strong dark 'shadow' that makes it look as if the neck were a square peg set at an angle

then why only the deltoids? there is no muscle at all in the rest of the arm or meat to suggest shape of any sort, on the matter of muscles the female abdominals only has two sets with the others loosely washed flat and while the males have all five sets of abdominasl drawn they are in the wrong place and are the wrong shape and size, it looks like you used a skinned anatomical reference instead of any human body for your pixeling which is a shame or you would know you cannot /see/ the last set at all over the skin and the second-to-last virtually always blends with the one above it so that they look either like one single or are joined enough that there is no clear separation, that is why you never hear of an '8-pack' of abs let alone a 'ten' you have an extra set showing. you also left out the lower gastro muscles in the back far leg of the male giving him something of a cankle on that side also neither side of either base's feet have heels or arches

if you are not going to shape the legs according to the muscles you put in please do not bother editing them, they look undershaded because the rest is overshaded anyway but thanks for not just shooting that one down like all the other comments

they are broken because they seem absent under the breast and tucked in much too far on it and above it is actually farther in than directly below it, if you remove the breast all-together you can see the odd way it is bent and how little of it there is, again this shirks all realism that even the most liberal airbrushing of people magazine would not dare

my suggestion is to bring in the line that you pulled out on the neck to take it back to it's original size, other than that your only option would be to center it which would mean you'd either need to thicken the other side of the neck or move the whole thing over. it is simply not aligned with so much of only one side moved, personally i say put it back the way it was since the current now leave several bits of neck hanging over the side of the jackets on one side



if you are willing to listen then the base could be lovely but messing up the lines and the shading then saying you dont want to mess up the lines or shading by fixing the errors is not how you do it, i showed the base to a pixelist on another site who isn't a member both the old and new versions and she quite frankly hated the new one and without prompt saw several of the same problems and pointed them out, another user on here also agrees they are terribly made and she isn't going to change her avatar anymore because she does not like seeing the base which is bad because all of her avis show most of the arms and upper body off



you also forgot about the breast closest to the viewer, it is still much too far over

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:21 pm Reply with quote        
i have pixeled for three sites one of which i was the baseist, i have maed hundreds of base in my spare time some of which were anime styled as apposed to realistic and i hang out almost exclusively with dollers baseists pixelists and artists and this base flies in the face of nearly everything you have told me it should be doing/showing. it needs a lot of work and it would do well to be revamped. it is not an improvement on the old one at all it is simply a new version of the same old problems


depending on how revisions go and if there even art any i am quitting this site and giving all my stuff away, i cant play on a site where i cant stand looking at the avatars

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:48 pm Reply with quote        
Chocobo you have never seemed to like Midorea since you got here. If you dislike it so very much then by all means leave I don't think you will very much be missed by those of us that have never talked to you and care not to speak to you because of these posts like this.

Constructive criticism is great but berating cat because you have don this or that and the other is not the way to go about it. Saying you have done all this and such to try and belittle a site creator isn't giving you very many brownie points in my book. Further more I enjoy the changes they will take a bit of getting used to but changes cannot simply be made over night. Especially to bases that were created in 2008 and have had several items old and new made for them.

I think what cat is trying to do is make improvements where she can in order not to have to start from scratch which is never a fun thing to do for any site. So maybe you could come off a bit nicer with your criticism and not such a royal pain because you have done this or that and been this or that.

It's quite rude crude and socially unacceptable.

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:51 pm Reply with quote        
It'll take a bit of getting used to, but I am accepting of change.

I do agree that the jaw may need a bit more definition, It looks like the head is just kind of melted on to the neck.

Other than that I generally like it the more I look at it.

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:00 pm Reply with quote        
Having worked as a pixel artist and having made bases for sites in the past (since people feel the need to put their past jobs here. Jab ) I've always thought Midorea's avatars and pixel style where fab. This just makes the bases all the better as far as I can see. You've fixed a lot of the bugbears I had with the base and I feel I like them a lot more than I did before, which is saying something there. : D

LOVE the torso edits, they were needed. The rib area in the female base is so much love. Hai
Thanks Cat!

Edit: Though I think some of the head items, like the hat I have on, may need to be readjusted to the new face which sets higher on the head.
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:03 pm Reply with quote        
@littl3chocobo
Just an aside, but this isn't a peer-review session. Honestly, no one cares about your credentials, and the fact that you cited them without prompt, as well as completely misspelled everything during your presentation, makes it seem like you're not bothering to respect any other party in the discussion.

As for your critique, I agree that there's some validity to some points. The detailing on the male chest seems excessive compared to the rest of the body, and the change of the neck skews the rest of the image.

Likewise, some shades on the female body make it look too sharp, and the navel looks pinched together, trading any natural curvature with

With that said, you fail to understand that the current style of Midorea is mildly stylized with slight bias towards realism. Rather than contrasting avatars between distinct tones, or focusing on completely stylizing the images to caricatures, Cat tried to go for a combination of art that melded some realistic tones with the contrast you get from cartoons.

I'm not going to excuse her for any mistakes she makes, though, since I do agree that there are some problems. However, I do wish to cement some points:

This is not a peer-review session. No one cares about your qualifications. In fact, your presentation of your qualifications was so error-prone and biased, that I'm more inclined to believe that you're bullshitting rather than contributing. And even if you're not, I'm automatically negatively inclined towards your alleged three sites because of the lack of standards they seem to expect from their artists.

No one cares about your anecdotes. Saying you showed X to Y does nothing to contribute to your statement. Would my assessment be any different if I said I showed your post to my professor, and he responded by saying "Never write your logic arguments like that. Ever."?

Too long; Didn't read:
Art still has some problems. Chocobo should drop off his/her high horse, as no one cares what qualifications he/she make up for him/herself.

Edit 1: Directed my message, because I took a while to look.

Also, surprise surprise, art preference is subjective. Littl3chocobo presented a bunch of opinionated stuff based equally on objective mistakes and subjective preferences. That's why responses are not unilaterally negative.

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:14 pm Reply with quote        
I like them. Other than some minor details, I love the update.

EditL
-The abs on the male look a little odd, IMO. But, I wouldn't be making an avatar without a shirt anyway :P
-Both necks seem to have a little bump where pixels line up awkwardly at the start of the curve
-The female shoulders seem broader than the males, but that's just an illusion created by the contrast with the breasts and waist. They're about the same.

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:51 pm Reply with quote        
Okay, so I have a couple of things to say here. I'll try to be as concise as possible and make sense and hopefully say something vaguely worthwhile, but I make no guarantees. xD;

First of all: your edits are lovely Cat. Overall I do prefer these new bases, although the differences will take some getting used to. There are a few nitpicks I'm going to voice to you though, because I value honest opinions over blind praise or blatant insults.

Perhaps, as others have said, the jaws could use some more definition; although, if we're being honest to realism, not everybody has a well defined jaw, so that may not be much of an issue. Also, there are certain areas of shading that appear a bit too "bulky" to me. If that makes any sense at all. Sweat The area that come to mind particularly are the female rib cage on the side of the breasts and the male groin area. It could just be me though, I'm not a pixel artist and have no idea how I would do it any differently. Also, something about the muscle definition of the male legs bother me; the shading on the edges makes the lines look a little too sharp to me. Again, I don't know what could be done to change this, and it's just one layman's opinion.

Whatever the case, I for one, really appreciate all the hard work you put into this site. I feel that any changes you make are "good" ones, because they show that you care enough to actively work on this site, which is far preferable to admin who just doesn't seem to care. Active staff is one of the best ways to increase activity and enjoyment in a site, after all.

Now, there's just one other thing I feel that I need to address, and that's littl3chocobo's critique. I'm going to try to be as honest and forthcoming as I can on this point while still remaining polite, if possible. I think a list of all the things I want to say would work more effectively here, so here goes:

1. It is find to have complaints and constructive criticism; that's how a community can grow and be strengthened. Active members of a site are just as important, if not more so than active staff. The thing about constructive criticism though is that it needs to be just that, constructive not insulting and argumentative in nature.

2. Showing someone else's hard work off too someone who doesn't even know them for the sole purpose of discussing what's wrong with it, seems like a rather sad attempt to validate your own opinion, honestly. Of course, I can't pretend to know your motivations, and if this is not what you were doing I apologize for being presumptuous.

3. We are a friendly and good-natured community as a whole. However, even with the best of communities, what you get out of it has a whole lot to do with what you put into it. If you feel that people are not receptive to you or your suggestions, perhaps consider how you come across when making them. I'm not saying that anyone should have to "walk on eggshells," but a little bit of tact in how you present an issue can go a long way. If you seem hostile, angry, and rude there's a good chance people are either going to get upset by, or simply ignore any suggestions you have, no matter how valid they are.

4. I am sorry that you don't find these changes appealing; there are always going to be changes in life and I might suggest you learn to take them a little better than you appear to be taking these. I'm not saying this to be rude, it's just a bit of personal advice. While not every change can be called "progress," most changes (especially in this case) can be called "progressive attempts." Cat deserves appreciation for running this site so well, not ridicule.

5. Your opinion is not the only one that counts, it's as simple as that. You're welcome to make suggestions, but don't act insulted when people don't agree with you one hundred percent, or even at all. That kind of narrow-minded approach sort of undermines the validity of the point you're trying to make, don't you think?

6. Last thing, I promise. If you don't want to be here then feel free to go, but don't make it something big and dramatic. Like I said, this is friendly place and we really don't need or want the drama...at least I don't. If the new bases offend your delicate sensibilities so much then I, for one, am truly sorry. I wouldn't think something so trivial would be a reason to leave, myself. This site, while it is an avatar site, is largely about the community. Even if the avatars were hideous (which they're not) I would stay here for the company alone. I'm sorry that you've never seemed to feel that kind of connection here. If you do decide to stick around, maybe it's something we can all work on together. If you leave though, I hope you find a community that you enjoy and maybe try to make sure you come off as quite so haughty to them.

Wow...sorry for the wall-o-text guys. Unfortunately, there's no tl;dr version of what I have to say. Ever. Neutral xD;

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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:24 pm Reply with quote        
sly, that was very eloquent and well put and while i did very much intend to be blunt and exact in my feelings you are right that the bit about the not wanting to be here was a bit much and off-topic, i will admit that bit was my being angry that my comments were mostly ignored after i was told specifically by catghost to say them after pming her a much less specific assessment though you are a little wrong, other than catghost's lack of, well to put it bluntly consideration for opinions not her own and issues with another user sexually harassing me in the name of fun i did rather like it here



for maverik, you should prolly not be rude when you are telling someone to be less rude. it comes off more than a little hypocritical and tarnishes some of the better parts of your reply by making you seem just as petty

the sites are, since you don't believe me crysandrea after open beta during the first year and a half it was there(i made several of the commons plus the entity of the original bug shop if you were on it when the shop was opened as well as the second easter event) trisphee for design i made several designs for events, the pixel roughs for several monthly donation items and about half of the yearlies of 2011(though barring two i was the designer for them all) as well as erde that never got off of closed beta for financial reasons of which i was the pixelist and one of the designers. you may say you do not care but for how much you harp on them i feel you might just a bit more than you'd say

fyi though, if you did not read you wouldn't know what i said and if you are going to make a hypothetical use proper grammar. please type like an adult if you are going to preach to people

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