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Post new topic   Reply to topic Is it worth it? (Science and the Higgs boson)
Elrakis



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 PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:54 am Reply with quote        
For a month ago I was talking to this friend of mine, an old farmer in the age of 67. If he had a beard, he'd look like a proper wizened sage. Anyways, he is a wise man and much different. Farmer, blacksmith, old, father of six, and so on. It's allways fun talking to him. I told him about a list I read about the most expensive subtances in the world. I made him guess which was number one. He said: "Daimonds", I said: "No, it's anti-matter".

I told him about the price, several billions of dollars for a gram. Sure, they never make that large amounts of anti-matter, far from a gram, but they sure make it regulary, and it costs. Not to talk about the machines they use, particle accelerators and what ever. Expensive stuff, very expensive.

So my old friend is sceptical to many things in life, so I asked him the question: "Do you think it's worth it, if it's worth it for science, humanity?". After a short while he gave me the answer: "Maybe. But I bet that anti-matter has a similar value to the universe as it has to research". I bowed for his wise answer. But I still ask the question.

So the scientists at CERN and similar places made further economical efforts in search for the God particle, to complete their theory. They even said, before the project started, that if they don't find it then the understanding of the universe which we have may be completely wrong. In any case, as of the recent days, it seems as if they've found the Higgs boson, the God particle, the final piece of the puzzle. And what's next? Is it worth it? All the money...

What do you think?

As much as I love space and astronomy, I would give much for a trip to the moon or just even space. But when I think of it: what would a manned mission to Mars give humanity except pride? But what do we have to be proud over? Our wars and injustice? Why waste time on another planet when we have enough worries here? Again, that big question comes up when I sometimes think about science in other aspects: is it worth it?

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Chu
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 PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:55 pm Reply with quote        
The answer to your question would vary greatly from person to person, depending on their morals and values.

I value scientific advancement and understanding over many things, even if my personal understanding of the subject leaves much to be desired. I think that we should be interested in these grand conquests, rather than things closer to home. It is my belief that, the more we reach out to these large theories, and the more research we put into the explainable aspects of live and the universe, the more we CAN prove ourselves. We can be proud of our accomplishments: of just doing these things and making it this far.

Social and political discourse will never go away. We can always work to improve our societies and political systems, yes, but there is no utopia. There is no perfection. There is no ideal world. Why stunt our own growth for such a thing when we'll never achieve it? As I see it, the science and politics aren't even connected in the first place.


But to answer your question directly... Is it worth it? I think it is. We, as humans, have such a wide array of interests and studies... It's truly astounding. There may be this problem or that problem, but as long as we're pushing forward somewhere, I think that it is all worth it in the end. Lives may be lost, sacrifices may be made, but true knowledge and understanding are worth everything.

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Elrakis



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 PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:15 pm Reply with quote        
Thank you, Chu, for your sincere comment. But if we'll never achieve perfection, doesn't that mean that the steps we take forward are slightly smaller than the steps we take backwards? If it were the other way around, then we would eventually reach that utopia, if not, that must mean that we're on a slow ride to oblivion. If so, it makes all of the accomplishments seem pointless, worthless, vain. Soon being nothing more than vague memories of a once thrifty species who were oblitorated by the winds of change - their own stupidity. Is this conclusion wrong?

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neomattlac



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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:51 pm Reply with quote        
Was the invention of the safety or the discovery of electric heat menile?
How about the invention of cola? Cola was invented in the quest for something else. Who knows what we'll get during the quest for the answers we don't need.
Like I said, we don't need many of these answers, but it leads to many other things. As for Mars, I'm relatively sure that there are very large iron deposits on Mars, which is an element that isn't produced on Earth.

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KoyiTar



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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:32 pm Reply with quote        
Iron is produced on earth just not purely. It basically has to be pulled out of other elements to get the pure forum of it much like well most metals. Here's a link to a site that explains it better than I can. http://www.webelements.com/iron/

Now pure iron that doesn't have to be mined and whatever the term is for it is probably more abundant on mars but iron can be found here on earth. Without it as the page said may forms of life would cease to be.

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neomattlac



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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:18 pm Reply with quote        
Ok, my mistake. And that's pretty awesome.

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Chu
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 PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:00 am Reply with quote        
I don't necessarily believe so. A step forward doesn't have to be a step toward perfection, per se. It's like saying that you "wasted your time" on something. No time is ever wasted, even if you spend it sleeping the day away. Everything has its purpose, its meaning, and its own place in life. Just because it doesn't fit into what you perceive as something "useful," well, that doesn't mean that it has no use.

Heheh, you've caught me in an awkward position here. I have what most consider a depressing view on life and the existence of humanity. I see death as a release or salvation, even if there is no afterlife. You've served your purpose, and now you rest: simple as that. Same goes for our collective existence. So the oblivion that you mention? I see that as our retribution. Not an entirely bad thing, even if we still could have done more.

The way I see it: we have a limited time here, so there's no sense in dwelling over whether we're making enough progress or making any difference at all. I consider any movement - forward or back - better than stagnation. With each mistake we make, we learn another lesson. If that mistake happens to end it all, or prevent that end, well, we gave it our best shot. I'm content in thinking that.

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Elrakis



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 PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:21 am Reply with quote        
Speaking of resouces and Mars, I do believe that tritium is far more attractive at the moment than iron, considering the energy and emission problems we have. And for tritium it's enough going to the moon. Closer, and we've been there before. Mars can wait... although I am tempted to live in a Bradburian Mars like reality.

Chu, I share your view on death. But if a step is forward, but not towards perfection, what is it then? A step sideways, if perfection is at north and something else at east and west, and failure at the south?

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Chu
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 PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:03 pm Reply with quote        
An interesting question. Quite possibly, although I have to ask: how does one even define failure? As discussed before, many great discoveries came about because of what seemed like failures. Can you ever be sure that something really is a failure?

It's like what a therapist may say: there is no failure, as long as you've learned from the experience.

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neomattlac



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 PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:35 pm Reply with quote        
You're lucky your therapist told you that. I had to find it out the hard way, not to mention that most of my friends don't understand the concept. X{P

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Elrakis



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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:11 am Reply with quote        
You make an interesting point there, Chu. I've told myself and others several times that there are two ways of learning things: either by listening to the wise, or the hard way - by failure. So yes, sometimes a certain degree of failure might lead to progress. But to me there must also be what we can call true failure. How to define that... I do not know. I haven't thought about it until now. I will think about it, though, and will let you know if I come up with some sort of theory. Good thing you gave me something fresh to think about! Interesting Smile

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neomattlac



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 PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:05 pm Reply with quote        
True failure is when you chase after something for years, and then, when you finally get there, you realize that it isn't where you meant to go. Then, you were so focused on your path, that you didn't learn anything.

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KathiraNarae



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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:13 am Reply with quote        
This may be thread necromancy, but when it comes to the Higgs Boson and having found it, yes, that WAS a waste of time. Because it turned out to exist exactly as expected, leaving no 'where do we go from here' in that field. But we only found this out by doing the experiments and actually finding the damn thing.

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Strix Varia



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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:04 am Reply with quote        
Heh. I was surprised to see all the new people that I haven't seen before. It wasn't until you mentioned thread necromancy that I thought to look at the post dates.

I really should look up current reports on the Higgs Boson but I think I remember hearing that several scientists suspected that it was just a fluke or a slight hiccup in the measuring equipment. The test will have to be repeated once or twice to confirm the original finding.

Even if it is true, the next step would probably be figuring out how to utilize it. If there were a way to generate enough antimatter to fuel an engine and you could somehow combine it with a better developed Higgs Boson technology, that might really be the first true step in galactic travel.

The problem is that neither Boson or antimatter technology will likely be better developed until someone figures out how it might be financially profitable. And it will never be financially profitable until the technologies are better developed Sweat
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